The Future of Gosford

[brett]

I've just been browsing through the website with the future plans for Gosford City after reading bits and pieces in the paper recently.

www.planning.nsw.gov.au/gosford/

Very interesting stuff. If Gosford could turn out like that in 25 years I'd be elated. But I was just wondering the thoughts of other Coasties and maybe people who would know more aout city development than I?


As per the Mariners, the 10,000 extra residents within walking distance of the stadium - which they've listed as one of four key sites - would surely help fill the bloody thing. If they remained as the sole major team on the Coast they'd surely contribute greatly towards the new identity. Exciting times.

[omni]

I was involved a little bit on the Vision 2025 document released by Gosford City Council, very exciting times for Gosford LGA and hopefully that can extend to include the development of Wyong from a Shire to a City.

[dibo (pron. "DIB-OH")]

This is where I reckon gialloblu would have an interesting perspective, and there's a few state public servants floating around on here who might have a view as well...

For my layperson's money, I reckon:

• The plan to encourage higher density and taller buildings in the CBD is a very sensible idea - creates an economic critical mass which should help Gosford actually generate jobs (rather than receive them from elsewhere or through relocation of government departments) and this will mean that kids in Gosford will be less likely to move away to study and work.* Another point is that the shaping of building heights to minimally interfere with the feeling of the natural topography and planning to protect certain views is really important.
  
• The idea to encourage higher density housing in the CBD is an extremely smart idea – if people move into the CBD in brownfields developments, they’re *not* chopping down trees for quarter acre blocks on the fringe of the coast. They’re typically utilising existing public infrastructure (roads, sewers, transport, schools) rather than requiring new stuff. They’re also adding into the critical mass that allows a service and elementary consumption economy (everything from shops to cafés to dry cleaners and computer stores) to thrive in the CBD, rather than in a relatively isolated suburban shopping mall.
  
• The basic idea of *planning* a town is also a good idea. Thinking ahead about how Gosford should look and feel 25 years from now means that it’s more likely to grow than simply congeal, and will inform other decisions because there will be a sense of strategy. It will give council and the community a feel for what to do about a range of lower level concerns because all other decisions will be made with the town plan in mind. Gosford will have a ‘feel’ all of its own, a unique character that will become an asset in itself. And more people will want to go there, and live there, and work there. And that’s good for all of us.
  

Long story short – I like it. I like it a lot.

* For something really interesting, check this image out:

It’s a graph comparing the distribution of population by age in Gosford CBD, Gosford Local Government Area and NSW. You can see that the distribution of people aged between 20 and 40 in Gosford LGA is significantly below the state average.

This (I think) is due to two things - people of that age aren't moving to the coast (possibly because they can't find attractive work there and don't want to commute), and those raised there move away (probably for much the same reason).

[dru]

It sounds good in theory, It seems to be all the currently in vogue town planning concepts in line with urban renewal. Here comes the but, but I don’t think it is a good thing, it turns the centre of Gosford into a transitional place. High density housing is great until the family comes along, Gosford will be trendy and where the young ones live and then they’ll live there until it no longer suits their life style. In a way Gosford won’t feel like anyone’s place anymore and the people who live there won’t feel any attachment to it and will be less likely to report crime, anti social behaviour or look out for others.

Alternative those that do move in will as they get older become sick of the pubs and nightclubs and start making complaints and reduce the effectiveness of turning it into being accesable 24hrs, although the current midnight lookout policy in Gosford already is against the vision. Once these are gone no one is on the streets at nights and then crime will grow and the trendy people will move out of the unsafe Gosford city and it will be a downward spiral.

Basically unless there is a shift in societies attitudes we will become more isolated no matter how close we live.

[Adz]

To continue Dru's story....... and then they changed the name from Gosford to Gotham City...

Inspiring story Dru.. lol

[dibo (pron. "DIB-OH")]

dru - i don't see in your points something that says 'there's a better way' - i'd really like to know what you'd like to see.

my opinion (as i made fairly clear) is that it's a good way to go, a large part of that is based on me thinking it'd be a big improvement on what we've got at the moment.

[dru]

Rightio, I was replying to Tigers post and hadn't read anyone elses.

Lets see what I also missed out, we don't have a water source that will be able to support the growth of the area let alone 10k in just gosford. Our transport corridors will not be able to cope with the increase in traffic and our public transport is not set up to cope.

I also don't see the waterfront area working out like they have planned, hell the mariner has been in the planning stage for at least 8 years in various locations around brisbane waters!

how to make it work or do it better-
- Dedicated public transport corridors throughout the central coast area radiating from Gosford and Wyong.
- Less of a focus on high rise apartments, focus put onto medium density housing. Terrace houses are a better solution to the Mcmansion explosion than apartment buildings they give a backyard albeit a small one and allow individual terraces to have rain water tanks etc. some apartment buildings are necessarry don't get me wrong but they are not the whole solution
- Housing placed around public parks(kibble) I think this is planned but this will only work if people look out there windows and look out for each other. It will mean massive redevelopment of the area surrounding area.
- A mix of buisinesses wanting to trade in the gosford area providing entertainment. how long has it been since we had the movie theatres in Gosford.
- An ability of the area to attract and keep job opportunities on the coast(what we didn't do with the coles distribution plant) and to have an edge to attract companies to Gosford city.
- Restrict building heights at there current maximum heights, at one point in the plan it mentions buildings over 36 stories being made subject to architectual design compitions. To high in my opinion.
- A dedicated entertainment area where venues are protected
- Shopping plazas to combat the affects of shopping centres like westfield Tuggerah and Erina fair

Lets look at some of the positives
- Gosford has a very permeable layout.
- It is on an artierial transport link
- It's in a desirable location
- It is at least looking at a plan.

In my first post I said because of the transient nature of the high rise apartments it would become less safe, when people witness a person or property being victimized they will not respond with assistance just because they are witnessing the crime, some other conditions need to be meet. Newman (1972, 78-79) lists these conditions as
“The extent to which the observer has a developed sense of his personal and proprietary rights and is accustomed to defending them.
The extent to which the activity observed is understood to be occurring in an area within the sphere of influence of the observer.
Identification of the observed behaviour as being abnormal to the area in which it occurs and therefore warranting response.
The observer’s identification with either the victim or the property being vandalized or stolen.
The extent to which the observer feels he can effectively alter (by personal or collective response) the course of events being observed.”
When certain activities start to be seen as no longer unusual in an area they become less likely to be stopped by the residents or the passers by.

When looking at security it can be useful to adopt a notion used to analyse Islamic cities where the city is organized along a spatial range that include private, semi-public/semi-private and public spaces. This idea allows for the residence to be considered the private domain of the resident, including backyards and the like, while a street that induces pedestrian movement becomes public space. Moughtin (1992, 133) comments “Family security is served well by the home on a plot enclosed on three sides by neighbouring plots with just one access point from the road for pedestrians and the family car.” with the surrounding houses providing eyes to watch over the house, it’s security is increased as well as having access blocked from strangers by the lots on each side.

Newman, O., 1972. Defensible spaces, The Macmillan company, New York.

Moughtin, C., 1992. Urban Design: Street and Square, Butterworth Architecture, Oxford.

[countryhick]

It's interesting. I would love to move from Tamworth to Gosford for a number of various reasons. The lack of available jobs in Gosford (no way in hell will I commute to Sydney) is part of the reason why i won't at this point in time. Nice to see a Local Council actually planning ahead, be nice to see my local council do it. Muppets.

As far as water supply goes, our water supply here in town is at 16% atm. I dunno where you guys draw your water from, however, regardless of that, the council needs to realise (and not just your council, all councils in our country) that we are a desert country. Rainwater tanks should be made compulsory on all houses. Not just new developments, but all houses, and should be subsidies by a combination of local/state and federal funding. Residents should not have to pay any more than 25% of the cost of a tank, as the reason why water supply is so critical country wide atm is the fault of the Governments to plan ahead and realise that they need to plan ahead. Slimline tanks are available now for situations with minimal space, such as terraces and flats.

36 stories is far to high. I've never been in Gosford on a weekday so I dont know about the public transport situation there, but as far as general parking, as long as proper drainage and lighting etc is available, there is nothing wrong with underground parking...I mean 3 or 4 levels underground, not just one. and then go three or fourlevels above ground as well... some good ideas in there though, and the plan itself is a step in the right direction.

[marinermick]

dru said:

Housing placed around public parks(kibble) I think this is planned but this will only work if people look out there windows and look out for each other. It will mean massive redevelopment of the area surrounding area.
- A mix of buisinesses wanting to trade in the gosford area providing entertainment. how long has it been since we had the movie theatres in Gosford.
- An ability of the area to attract and keep job opportunities on the coast(what we didn't do with the coles distribution plant) and to have an edge to attract companies to Gosford city.
- Restrict building heights at there current maximum heights, at one point in the plan it mentions buildings over 36 stories being made subject to architectual design compitions. To high in my opinion.
- A dedicated entertainment area where venues are protected
- Shopping plazas to combat the affects of shopping centres like westfield Tuggerah and Erina fair

Don't forget a dedicated cultural precinct. At the moment our major theatre is at Wyoming and our regional art gallery at East Gosford.

We need a larger indoor multipurpose theatre and performance area so we can house the larger events and entertainers.

We need more art and performance spaces so Gosford can improve its cultural status.

As a side on of the most brilliant (and totally unfeasible suggestions) I have heard is to put Dane Drive underground. This would create a link from the city to the foreshore.

And surely that school could be relocated to a better place. It is taking up prime public land that could be used very effectively for public (not residential) space.

[shelleybeach]

they have been talking of this for ages -don't forget Warnervale was meant to be a new 'city' - 1st planned in the late 60s, complete with a city centre, high and medium density housing, employment areas - what happened? legoland. Gosford was always a much better option, it has the infrastructure like hospitals, shops, public transport, parks and could easily accommodate a few high rise towers without ruining the view. Much better to build there then at less accessible areas, like all the flats that were put up at The Entrance (it's not Surfers) They do need to upgrade the train service to Sydney though and sort out the water supply.

[dibo (pron. "DIB-OH")]

I remember one time getting an overnight train home from Melbourne, and I was happily reading (couldn't sleep) when we got into Junee. Some local yokel got on and started raving about how Junee’s a town that's really going places, because it had just got its first McDonalds.

This is an illustration (on a very small scale) of what happens when people think highly of things that come to their town/city.

In Gosford, the mariners have been one of those sorts of things. We now have a football team in our town. That’s important. But it's really only the start.

There needs to be a variety of things in Gosford itself, to really spark the city up, make it genuinely attractive for the widest possible variety of people and give it a unique character.

There’s a lot of brownfields space in the CBD itself - old shop buildings and whatever that have basically been untenanted or underutilised since grace bros closed down in the centre of town in the late '80's to move to Erina. This could be reclaimed for new developments.

One of the crucial things in the plan is the structure of the streetscape - retail frontages, commercial above, retail above that. this means that (if carried through as a global design rule for the CBD) each building is making a contribution to the critical mass of the city, providing people, space for jobs and space for consumer recreation in the one unit. This will contribute to having high pedestrian traffic at all sorts of times, and should sustain a variety of restaurants, cafes and also entertainment facilities that are otherwise unfeasible.

Developing apartments rather than terraces means that time-poor people save time getting around, they're close to everything, and designed and built well they are really comfortable. They can even be attractive.

I think the plans they have for tall buildings are actually pretty sensible. It’s designed with the local topography in mind:


Having a number of pretty tall (the tallest possible building could be 72m tall – that’s about 24 storeys, but most could be no taller than about 30m or 10 storeys) buildings gives the city a sense of mass and health, and can be really pretty in their own right.

They also mean that there can be a lot of people here, and that rally is important. There need to be enough people to sustain everything else.

The most important idea in the whole plan is critical mass. What happened when Erina Fair was built and GB's moved out there was that the critical mass that had until then sustained the local shopping centre was gone? The key attractor had moved away and there was nothing to draw people into the CBD itself.

The CBD needs (probably quite a few) things to act as that drawcard, while not necessarily competing on the same level as Erina Fair and Tuggerah Westfield (they're space hungry, they're established, they have a particular role that Gosford need not try to ape).

Something like an arena-type development somewhere in or around the city fringe might be an idea, as a cultural hub. A general cultural precinct is important as well, to ensure outlets for creative pursuits.

High level educational facilities linked to both Newcastle University and the Hunter Institute of TAFE (and perhaps eventually standing alone as a central coast university and institute) are vital to keep producing the skilled workforce that the city will rely on into the future.

And Gosford simply needs to be a pleasant place to go. It needs to be a place where you can go, hang out, have a coffee, grab a beer, sit in a sushi bar, do some shopping, grab groceries or whatever... It needs to find the best possible mix of places to live, places to shop and places to work. This plan's a pretty good model for mine. But the population kick for the CBD itself is probably the most important part of the lot.

[gialloblu]

Its a good plan overall. Its good to see various levels of government come up with a strategy for Gosford that will, if all the projections in it come to pass, will give the Coast the genuine city centre that it currently lacks. It'll have benefits for the whole Coast as it will encourage a local city with the type of services and employment and educational opportunities that are currently sourced elsewhere (i.e. Sydney and to a lesser extent Newcastle).

Specific points:

Built form (eg building heights and bulk): Higher density in Gosford makes sense for a few reasons. The simplest is Gosford's topography. Its constrained on three sides by steep hills and water, so the only way growth can happen is up. Increased density will also make Gosford feel like a city, where at the moment it has a bit of a country town feel. Buildings will, in two small areas, be able to go to 72m (thats 18 commercial or 24 residential storeys). This is the extreme - building heights on the map average about 24-30m, higher on larger blocks. I think it will be a long time before a 72m tower is commercially viable to build in Gosford. Also, look at the Floor Space Ratios (FSR) for an indication for building bulk. FSR is the amount of floor space permitted for a building as a ratio to site area. An FSR of 4:1 (as most of this plan is) means that you can build to a floor space 4 times the site area. For a comparison, Sydney CBD as FSRs around 12:1, and Parramatta CBD has around 6-8:1. Buildings built to the maximum permitted height at a 4:1 FSR will be offset by a lot of open space.

Increased housing in and around the city centre: As Dibo pointed out, this will lead to a lot of other services, such as shopping, entertainment (bars, restaurants, cafes, cinemas etc, all of which we need more). In a city centre environment, the efficient residential land use is residential flat buildings. They do attract particular demographic groups such as young adults and older, empty-nesters, but a city centre with any residential population will tend to provide attrations catered towards all people in the surrounding area. Townhouse/terrace housing is very useful, and often more practical for families, but is better placed where land isn't quite so valuable (areas such as North and East Gosford). An increased number of residential flat buildings in Gosford city centre will increase diversity of housing choice on the Coast, which is currently underrepresented in flats.

The focus on the waterfront is another positive. I can't believe how long Gosford has ignored this asset. It would be a great place for a 'lifestyle' district - bars, restaurants etc. I know its been talked about for years, but hopefully Gosford Council has sorted out its issues with development around the waterfront so that the area can live up to its potential.

Another important thing in the plan is the recognition that Gosford needs increased commercial activity. I think one of the biggest problems the Coast has economically, is not just that there not enough local jobs, but that there's not enough variety of local jobs. Commercial office development in Gosford will increase the number and variety of jobs (particularly your white-collar, professional jobs which we don't currently have much of). This will stop people a) having to commute to Sydney or b) leaving the Coast in search of suitable employment. The Coast has a huge shortage of young people aged 18-30. Increased job opportunities and appropriate housing options will help stop that.

People have mentioned the need for better transport links across the Coast and water solutions for Gosford's growth to be viable. If anybody's interested, the Department of Planning has out a draft Central Coast Regional Strategy that covers this (and a lot more), available at www.planning.nsw.gov.au/plansforaction/central_coast.asp

Finally (and apologies that this has turned into an essay), if people on this forum are interested and opinionated on Gosford's development, I strongly urge you make a submission (details at www.planning.nsw.gov.au/gosford/
). You don't have to be a planning expert for your views to be important. A lot of public discussion on the Coast tends to be dominated by older people, whose opinions aren't representative of the community at large. Given that young people will 'inherit' Gosford, its important that are views are heard

[countryhick]

I fit into that demographic being that Im 22 and I would move to Gosford if I could find a job in Gosford .

[serious14]

countryhick said:

I fit into that demographic being that Im 22 and I would move to Gosford if I could find a job in Gosford .

There's enough jobs going around that you'd be well suited to, but your attitude of "I refuse to commute to Sydney" is a bit narrow minded. I had that attitude for a while and it held me back in a big way....... once you realise just how many opportunities there are in Sydney you won't be saying no to the commute. Big $$'s down this way as well.

[dibo (pron. "DIB-OH")]

serious14 said:

countryhick said:

I fit into that demographic being that Im 22 and I would move to Gosford if I could find a job in Gosford .

There's enough jobs going around that you'd be well suited to, but your attitude of "I refuse to commute to Sydney" is a bit narrow minded. I had that attitude for a while and it held me back in a big way....... once you realise just how many opportunities there are in Sydney you won't be saying no to the commute. Big $$'s down this way as well.

It would be nice if getting an attractive job AND living on the coast wasn't dependent on willingness to spend 20 hours a week commuting though... I don't see it as narrow-minded at all, it's a perfectly valid point of view. I'd find living on the coast again much more attractive if I could definitely find the sort of work I'm keen on up there.

I'm also a fan of the sort of lifestyle the inner-city offers, and if Gosford offered similar I'd be much more likely to move back.

We all like and want different things, it'd be great if Gosford was more suited to be attractive to a wider variety of people (particularly that 18-40 age group that I'm right in the middle of and which is identified in the plan as being largely underrepresented).

[serious14]

dibo said:

It would be nice if getting an attractive job AND living on the coast wasn't dependent on willingness to spend 20 hours a week commuting though...

I meant narrow-minded more from the perspective of "I'm gonna get a high paying job that pays more than 90% of jobs in Sydney that I absolutely love on the Coast"....... 'cause the reality is that's just not the case.

As it is these days, the commuting isn't too bad once you get used to is, and like I said, in the majority of cases, the serious $$'s are in Sydney. It's just a bit naive to think otherwise is what I meant Dibo.

[dibo (pron. "DIB-OH")]

serious14 said:

dibo said:

It would be nice if getting an attractive job AND living on the coast wasn't dependent on willingness to spend 20 hours a week commuting though...

I meant narrow-minded more from the perspective of "I'm gonna get a high paying job that pays more than 90% of jobs in Sydney that I absolutely love on the Coast"....... 'cause the reality is that's just not the case.

As it is these days, the commuting isn't too bad once you get used to is, and like I said, in the majority of cases, the serious $$'s are in Sydney. It's just a bit naive to think otherwise is what I meant Dibo.

was going to post that i think we're saying much the same thing, but i'm not sure - can you clarify what you mean? do you mean that it's narrow-minded to suggest that it's an either/or proposal to choose either commuting or having a big $$ job while living on the coast?

[asking a dumb question in order to avoid making an even longer dumb answer]

[serious14]

Hehehe, not a problem.

Basically what I meant is that it's narrow minded to think that you can move to somewhere like Gosford, which isn't exactly the corporate epicentre of Australia, and expect to land the same sort of job that you might in a purpose built "business corridor" like North Ryde, North Sydney, or the CBD. At least not yet anyway....... it would be great if one day that was the case - I know I'd appreciate a 10 minute walk rather than a 70 minute drive everyday.

[dibo (pron. "DIB-OH")]

right, now we're on the same page.

so... insofar as plan brings more jobs, plan is good!

6,000 more jobs = plan is f***ing excellent IMO... 10,000 more people not too bad either - need the mass of people to make it work.

[serious14]

Dibo - the same page is always a good place to be. If only I could convince you that supporting Liverpool is a bad thing - but that's a long fight.