Les Murray doesn't like our style

[honey soy]

curious said:

I'd be interested in seeing a crumb of evidence of this. Perhaps next time you in the company of someone from a non Anglo-Australian background, you can ask their opinion?
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please."--Mark Twain

1. Like himself, his family, his wife or in-laws?

2. I remember the cricket coverage being a bit over the top, too.

3. Since when do you have to provide evidence on this forum?

[brett]

non-football: Are the Brits being oppressed or societally disadvantaged though? Big difference between them and the other situations you are talking about Mick.

There is also a big difference between racism and the use of stereotypes. Racism would imply that we are saying Poms don't deserve a fair go in one way or another. Just saying they are all Pommy whingers is a stereotype such as the fat, pompous, arrogant American or the tanned, lazy, beer drinking Aussie that have been beaten to death by stand up comics for years. It's hardly racism.

football: Bag out the current England NT under Steve McClaren - yes
Continue to crusade for technical reform in Australia - yes

Comment that the current Australian style is influenced by the old English route one style due to influx of their coaches- possibly ok to touch on this, but without contradicting yourselves. In Les' book he said that the Australia NT played good football because the players were the sons of immigrants who taught them outside of the general Australian coaching regime. But he then says that Harry Kewell is the son of an Englishman. They have to recognise that although it was invented in England, route one isn't the be all and end all of English football. SBS need to talk more about football styles and worry less about where they come from.

Bag out Butcher's tactics with Sydney - Yes
Say that Butcher was a bad coach because he was english - no
Criticise a new coaching appointment based on nationality not performances - NO!!!

[marinermick]

The fact that he was bagging out Butcher before he had even had a training session with Sydney on the pure basis that he was British is just plain and simple racism.

This is not an arguement about other ethnic groups and minorities - it about the vitriol that SBS serves towards british Football, and the media bashing of the Brits that would not be tolerated if it was from another race.

You talk about evidence James. What evidence does Craig Foster have that the Australian game would have been better if not influenced by the Brits?
Would the Mariners had been a better team if not coached by Lawrie McKinna?
Would I have been a better football player if I didn't have british coaches when I was younger.

The fact is that there is no evidence to support any of this or to answer definitively any of these questions.

Brit bashing is constant in the papers (as is "Yank" bashing for that matter). It is just people don't take notice of it because they have been educated as such through growing up in Australian society that tolerates such behaviour, and I would have expected many to dispute me because of this.

I look at your definition James and it fits perfectly with Fossie's attitude. He honestly believes that one system is more superior than another yet won't take each coach, player, person for their own merits or abilities.

And James, I am in contact with a multitude of different ethnic races on a daily basis, more than you can ever imagine, and the only thing I would presume to do is ask them about their experiences - not getting them to speculate about other races.

[Ursus]

I really wish you people would start to get your facts right.

England is not Britain it is part of Britain.
Scotland is part of Britain (the good part ) but Scots are not Poms. Understand?

If you want to bash Brits, then you are including the Scots, hence you are following the wrong football team.

Pommy bashing is allowed in both Scotland and Australia and is not racist but is an important part of the heritage of both countries.

This argument that pommy bashing is racist is very similar to accusing anyone who piles shit on Newcastle as being racist. Newcastle is shit it is just a fact of life.

I hope this sheds some light on what was becoming a very ill informed and silly debate. ;D

[brett]

I think it's Fossie's and Les' job to have an opinion about what football styles are better than others.

Football like most sports is up for subjective interpretation. There is no concrete evidence to 'prove' opinions.

You can use facts or stats to try to justify your opinion though, and Les will point to the 5 World Cups obtained by Brazil and the 1 by England to suggest that there are better paths Australia could follow than the predominately English influences we have had.

The two things SBS do wrong are

1) Continually refer to un-beautiful football as English/British when the football climate has evolved past that era at least at a high level.

2) Discriminate against coaches who are of a certain nationality without judging them on their actual coaching skills and style.

In some cases people perceive SBS to be doing a number 2 (giggle) when they aren't though. Who says Les hadn't watched Motherwell under Butcher and decided his teams played boring football before he ever showed up at Sydney? And I also think that if a French coach came over and got an A-League team playing ugly football that he would also be criticised.

Just like Les/Fossie must stop judging 'British football' and all it's products as rubbish, forum go-ers must stop judging all of Les/Fossie's football comments as rubbish. They must also be judged on a case by case basis

[curious]

marinermick said:

The fact that he was bagging out Butcher before he had even had a training session with Sydney on the pure basis that he was British is just plain and simple racism.

Completely disagree Mick. An attack on a football coach based on a predetermined over generalised opinion of an inferior playing style (be it right or wrong) is nothing more than a stubborn refusal to recognise the fact that all English coaches are not tared with the same brush regarding football tactics. Yes it's wrong in attitude but certainly doesn't paint all Englismen as inferior beings belonging to an inferior race of human nor has it been infered as such. Racism isn't an abhorance of a perceived notion of the fashion a particular nation coaches a damn sport.

This is not an arguement about other ethnic groups and minorities - it about the vitriol that SBS serves towards british Football, and the media bashing of the Brits that would not be tolerated if it was from another race.

We are predominately the same race as the English with the English still being the majority of immigrants from any one nation. Most still share ancestry with the English. Hell, I had ancesters in the war of the roses. Racism? I would still like to see examples of racism by the aussie media against the brits in the real context of racism.


You talk about evidence James. What evidence does Craig Foster have that the Australian game would have been better if not influenced by the Brits?
Would the Mariners had been a better team if not coached by Lawrie McKinna?
Would I have been a better football player if I didn't have british coaches when I was younger.

The fact is that there is no evidence to support any of this or to answer definitively any of these questions.

Agree of course.

Brit bashing is constant in the papers (as is "Yank" bashing for that matter). It is just people don't take notice of it because they have been educated as such through growing up in Australian society that tolerates such behaviour, and I would have expected many to dispute me because of this.

If you or anyone remembers the 'White Australia policy' of the past, Austalian native treatment which continues today, or Pauline Hansons media assisted attacks on minority groups & even present stereotyping of moslems, this discussion topic is laughable to rate a mention in comparison.

I look at your definition James and it fits perfectly with Fossie's attitude. He honestly believes that one system is more superior than another yet won't take each coach, player, person for their own merits or abilities.

His public attitude is about football. Nothing more. Narrow minded & opionated yes, racist, no.

And James, I am in contact with a multitude of different ethnic races on a daily basis, more than you can ever imagine, and the only thing I would presume to do is ask them about their experiences - not getting them to speculate about other races.

& that was the idea. Their experiences would likely display the reality of racism, not the anger of some over one persons poor attitude when commenting on English coaches & football. To put them both in the same basket is at best an ignorance of what many people are forced to live with every day.[/i[/size]]

[marinermick]

It is not as black and white as that hence the debate going on here.

Fossie professes one race's superiority over another in football coaching. To me that is racism.

By the way I just asked one of my English co-workers about this topic and she said she is subjected to racism constantly. She actually said that she saw something offensive on television the other night and mentioned to her husband that if it was directed at an Italian or Lebanese or Chinese it would have not received any air time.

Not understanding that all races can be subjected to racism is the ignorance.

[jazasydneyfc]

I concur.

I don't think people quite grasp the true meaning of racism, or the effects it has on people. I'm still subjected to jokes about not washing, supposed "whinging", and an infinite other of offensive remarks. Keep in mind I've lived here 6yrs and my English accent is all but gone. I don't consider myself overly Australian, nor English really, I'm just like everyone else. You simply cannot insult people's race in the fashion that occurs so frequently in this country. Often passed off as jovial (and I admit, I take most of it as I cbf any more) it actually grates. No Australian who dishes it out would ever take it back in return.

Whilst Terry Butcher was being interviewed by SFC for the position Foster was directly quoted as saying "I don't watch any Scottish football, but I know all about it" and "no I've never watched a Terry Butcher side, but I know what they play like". Read those again. Now, again. FFS... The main plainly admits to not watching a Butcher slide then slates him.
Why?
Because of his nationality. That and that alone.

I'm hiring people right now for my office, as I often do. On my desk right now are a stack of resumes, one of them is a Vuan Hong Nguyen, the other is a Nicholas Darcy. If I was to sit down with my MD and immediately preclude Mr. Nguyen from employment before meeting him on the back of "I've seen Vietmanese people in the workplace before" then I'd be sacked for racial discrimination - and deservedly so. That's tantamount to what Foster did with Butcher, and continues to do with every single piece of British football culture, despite English clubs' consistent success on the continent.

marinermick said:

Fossie professes one race's superiority over another in football coaching. To me that is racism.

Indeed, he makes basic assumptions on the grounds of race and race alone that he then uses to discriminate against people. It's clear cut racism.

[curious]

Fossie professes one race's superiority over another in football coaching. To me that is racism.

That is irrational thought Mick & I doubt you mean it.
Using that analysis I cannot claim that Japan may be a superior electronics manufacturer or the US is superior in basketball coaching or Australia is superior in cricket coaching.

By the way I just asked one of my English co-workers about this topic and she said she is subjected to racism constantly. She actually said that she saw something offensive on television the other night and mentioned to her husband that if it was directed at an Italian or Lebanese or Chinese it would have not received any air time.

Nice to know those Italian, Lebanese & Chinese dont suffer as much racism in Australia as the English.

Not understanding that all races can be subjected to racism is the ignorance.

Seen it, lived with it, experienced it & far from ignorant of it.

[marinermick]

James, you are missing the whole point of what we are saying and your comment about electronics just highlighted it because now you are generlising according to race.

1. I never said that other races than Brits do not experience racism, nor that it can be worse. I used an example in the Australian media of how the Brits are slated in this instance and it wouldn't happen to other races, other than maybe the Americans. This is because of our education and conditioning to such behaviour.

You cannot deny that one individual Brit in Australia can be subjected to more racists than thousands of Lebanese. Inversely one individual Lebanese can be subjected to more racism than thousands of Brits.

2. Exactly, but when you start saying that Australians are crap at Electronics, even though there are many that are not, because they are not Japanese then you are making racist comments. This is what Foster is doing with Football.

[marinerbhoy]

ursus said:

I really wish you people would start to get your facts right.

England is not Britain it is part of Britain.
Scotland is part of Britain (the good part ) but Scots are not Poms. Understand?

If you want to bash Brits, then you are including the Scots, hence you are following the wrong football team.

Pommy bashing is allowed in both Scotland and Australia and is not racist but is an important part of the heritage of both countries.

This argument that pommy bashing is racist is very similar to accusing anyone who piles shit on Newcastle as being racist. Newcastle is shit it is just a fact of life.

I hope this sheds some light on what was becoming a very ill informed and silly debate. ;D

agree!!!!!

i first read this post at my uni mates place who is from england. we both had a good laugh.

someone should lock that foz up before his lectures to the footballing public on racial superiority force all pom coaches into the slave trade.

[wombat]

We are one of the best attacking teams in the comp when we can put a decent side out.

3.3 in Melbourne and the 4.0 demolition of Perth are testament to that.

In season 1 we were the fastest, fittist and most physical of all teams. Our movement was excellent and our overlapping unstoppable.

Season two, injuries and lack of depth in our squad cost us dearly. Once Gumps was injured the writing was on the wall but we still created many chances in most games we just didn't have any potent strikers once Mori was taken away from us.

Only against Adelaide were we uncompetative and ugly but the team we put out and the form we were showing...there was never going to be a happy end to the season.

We have brought well so far, and if we can keep our stars fit we will finish in the top 3 and will return to the free flowing, pacy football that we specialise in.

To slag us off as a non-footballing side is ignorant and very wide of the mark.

[greenpoleffc]

As a Londoner I always find Pommie bashing funny and am never offended by it. Simply put, all Londoners know they come from the centre of the Universe and find the jealousy of others funny (lets face it, Australians are still officially ruled from London.........)

As for SBS. They have very little relevance to the game in Australia anymore and these are the people who pay (yes, actually pay) Craig Foster.

Butcher should rightly have been slagged off as a crap coach. He had a poor reputation in England before he was appointed in Sydney. The fact that he is English isnt really relevant. SFC's cultural cringe should receive more criticism.

[wombat]

marinermick said:

If anyone saw half time this morning between England and Andorra Fossie just went to town on England, their style of play and how the whole English system is wrong.

I believe it was almost bordering on racism because most of it was just so generalized and prejudice.

I wonder how people would have reacted if the same attack was on the French, Germans, Turks or Japanese for example.

I honestly believe that the Brits in the media subjected to more racism in Australia than many of the races. The amount of Brit bashing on television and in the paper would not be tolerated if it was another race.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Foz has lost the plot. What has he ever achieved in the game. He was a reasonable player who never cracked the big time and played in the lower divisions in England. He was not an especially gifted or technical player.
He sets himself up as some fountain of all football knowledge.
He is a pretender.
England are poor atm and their manager is suspect to say the least. Foster would have applauded the appointment of Sven, previously, and what a waste of space he turned out to be. The studious Swede, schooled in Italian Football turned out to be a Charlatan.
To criticize a player or manager because of their race just shows a persons ignorance.
Foster constantly applauds the Football of Arsenal and they have been poor this year. Pretty, but, ineffective and toothless.
He blindly praises Spanish and Dutch Football but what have there national teams achieved. Real have been a disaster under the auspices of various European coaches.

If people had listened to that Tosser, Merrick would have been sacked and some European coach appointed. Victory had the brains to ignore SBS brainless mantras and reaped the rewards of a fantastic season and played exceptional attacking football.

Mick is 100% correct. Foster and to a lesser extent Murray are very biased against England and are blatantly racist.

Butcher was hung out to dry by Sydney from the moment he landed here. While I was surprised they signed him due to his lack of experience. The treatment Bling gave him was shameful, undermining him at every opportunity.

Give merit where it is due, regardless of race, colour or creed.

[curious]

As for SBS. They have very little relevance to the game in Australia anymore and these are the people who pay (yes, actually pay) Craig Foster.

They are still the only FTA media that push the football barrow in this country & to quite an extent. Without SBS, football coverage would be virtually non existent on FTA. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water simply because you think they have served their purpose & you don't need them anymore.

Give merit where it is due, regardless of race, colour or creed.

As any reasonable person should.

[Perm]

Foz is a little right about the shite situation English Football and its development has found itself

[brett]

www.theworldgame.com.au/opinions/index.php?pid=st&cid=85642&ct=33

Fossie's new article! Yes he does mention England!

I still maintain that while football commentators putting one type of play over another may fall under the definition of the word 'racist' technically, it's not very wrong morally (not wrong enough to offend more than the most sensitive) and it's more or less their job.

So what Fossie says in this article is fine. Discriminating against coaches based purely on a nationality and not by any way on their performance or coaching style IS wrong.

But of more interest to me is this video he has linked to at the end of his article. I have only had a chance to watch the first 6 minutes but it was quite interesting. People should watch it and post their thoughts ABOUT JUNIOR DEVELOPMENT AND THE FOOTBALL PHILOSOPHY OF AUSTRALIA and not any more about that other rubbish

[shelleybeach]

i agree some of the cricket headlines seemed to be over the top but calling it racist is also over the top as we have strong historic cultural and ethnic ties that mean we can take a joke between ourselves - most aussies would have english blood somewhere anyway, and the love-hate thing is hard to define.

from a different perspective I have lived in England for the last 6 years and know I will always get the old convict comments etc in certain circles but it's only a joke. I watched Brentford v Oldham last week - their keeper was an aussie, Les Pogliacomi, and he was abused for being an aussie, ('aussie wanker', 'aussie, aussie, aussie, shit, shit, shit', 'thief' 'etc) - it was abuse, but not racist. Interestingly Brentford had an aussie too so work that one out (Adam Griffiths) .

As for SBS, they seemed to have been successful in supporting the profile of football but have now been left aside as the game is so well supported. they aren't needed as much anymore and must be bitter. they also have a very elitist perspective on the world

[fozzie]

rubbernose said:

Les is a bloody jerk, bordering on senile imho, and I seriously wonder how often the likes of him, Fozzie, and the rest of the SBS clan actually watch the A-League at all, based on some of the clueless comments they often make.

They play to a certain audience, and the Branko ass licking has reached sickening, cringeworthy proportions. I mean gawd, I know they're mates but they could at least try and be slightly balanced every so often.

Why do you say these things about Les Murray,without Les,the late and great Johhny Warren and SBS there would be no decent football at all in this country.All you would have would be that awful English Premier League on foxsports every weekend and who the hell wants to watch that detritus apart from a swinish mutitude of ex pat english scummers that we have unexplicably brought to Australia??

So maybe SBS are a little harsh on some of the A league sides and their style of play but somone has to tell it like it is.Simple minded fans of your ilk care only for promotion and regardless positivity whereas TWG viewers,intelligent and thinking football fans want well thought out unobjectionable comment,analysis and scrutiny of the proceedings.

You should try Total Football

[jigsaw]

Thank heavens we are not all football toffs, the only reason I keep foxtel on is for the A-League. Maybe one day our scruffy little league will grow up into the handsome prince but in the meantime I would still rather watch it than any of the dutch, spanish, serbian, venezuelan, etc leagues that SBS choose to show.