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Post by brett on Mar 28, 2007 14:05:56 GMT 10
Les Murray has been pretty consistent with his criticism of the Mariners' style of play in his column on TWG website. His latest is no exception. www.theworldgame.com.au/opinions/index.php?pid=st&cid=85587&ct=22"Now five of the eight A-League clubs are playing a professed ‘passing game’ (as opposed to only one, the Roar, doing it at the start of version one): Melbourne, Newcastle, Adelaide, Sydney and New Zealand. We await to see how the remaining three, Queensland, Central Coast and Perth, will be influenced by this trend come the new season.
It’s a massive turnaround and tantamount to a technical revolution in the fledgling A-League. The penny, it appears, has dropped. Clubs and their coaches are now realising that playing real football, ‘knocking the ball around’ rather than just hoofing it, is an avenue to both better results and swelling attendances."I have read Les' book and thought it was great. I sympathise with his love of fluid, attractive football and totally agree that this is the best and winningest way to play. This thread is to canvas people's thoughts on the Mariners play. Is it ugly football? Is it route one? Is it boring? Is it attacking? Is it fantastic? How far behind the rest of the league are we and how do we improve? |
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Post by brett on Mar 28, 2007 14:30:33 GMT 10
Personally I think we're not far behind the rest.
Melbourne had one individual, Fred, who had a superior touch and the willingness to do something special at the right moment. Other than that their football was still more or less systematic in its 'probing' rather than 'constructed' attack. Muscat and Brebner can pass a ball well over various ranges but they aren't that creative. And Melbourne uses long balls to Allsopp and Thompson to great effect.
Newcastle played probably the more attractive passing football. They are the only team I can remember in the A-League who could actually pass their way through a defence with one-touch stuff around the box. When Okon bothered to lay and started coming out of the back libero style it was cool. Credit to van Egmond and them. Coveny pretty much had an off season due to less long balls from season one when he rocked.
Then there's Adelaide, yeah they keep it down more but they still don't really 'create' anything special. They are best when they simply go wide to their dangermen.
Perth were forced to go long to Harnwell's head a lot. Queensland are hot cold up down all over the place, who score less when they play more attractive football. Sydney were ugly and Kiwis were rubbish then improved, as Les says.
I thought we played good stuff in year one. Our movement off the ball was awesome and made us uncontainable at times. We lack genuine passers of the ball and didn't have the backheels but by moving the ball quickly in triangles and pushing forward in extreme numbers we always had options to use. With SP, Tommy and Hutch as the main strikers the long ball was no good to us anyway. The amount of goals that came from various areas such as left back and defensive midfield was testament to our forward swarming style.
In year two we didn't go forward in as many numbers and therefore our attack was one dimensional. I still don't think we're a hoof-ball team. We were just more rigid. There were less goals at both ends. Lawrie decided to play a 'playmaker' formation when we didn't have our playmaker Tommy P on the field. Makeshift target men like Kwas and Hutch needed another man with them. The whole thing was a bit negative and I'd just about agree with Les there!
IMHO the league generally is all at about the same level, but it seems the difference often lies with individuals (Fred, Nick Carle) rather than team styles. If we get Tommy P on the field and invest in one or two special/different/creative players, we will be well on the right track to entertainment.
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Post by jazasydneyfc on Mar 28, 2007 14:47:40 GMT 10
Les is a f***nuckle. Lawrie's side has ALWAYS tried to impress. Yes, it failed on occasions in Season Two, often due to injury, but the will was always there. Never did it deteriorate.
It's just Les sticking up for his TWG mates Nick T and Branko. Disregard the bitter, biased old man.
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Post by curious on Mar 28, 2007 15:36:05 GMT 10
I see none of the above in his comments. Without Les & the lone voice of TWG over many years, you would not have a SydneyFC or HAL to support. I've seen too many ready to dump Les & SBS now Australian football & Fox are reaping the rewards enabled by the years of hard slog by a handfull of others. I can only shake my head at the ingratitude so often displayed.  |
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Post by jazasydneyfc on Mar 28, 2007 16:04:07 GMT 10
I see none of the above in his comments. Without Les & the lone voice of TWG over many years, you would not have a SydneyFC or HAL to support. I've seen too many ready to dump Les & SBS now Australian football & Fox are reaping the rewards enabled by the years of hard slog by a handfull of others. I can only shake my head at the ingratitude so often displayed. What gratitidue should I have for a company that weekly derides the country I come from, slates the new HAL regime and actively promotes a racist attitude towards the game? SBS haven't helped Aus football for over three years now. |
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marinermick
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Post by marinermick on Mar 28, 2007 16:11:12 GMT 10
I see none of the above in his comments. Without Les & the lone voice of TWG over many years, you would not have a SydneyFC or HAL to support. I've seen too many ready to dump Les & SBS now Australian football & Fox are reaping the rewards enabled by the years of hard slog by a handfull of others. I can only shake my head at the ingratitude so often displayed. What gratitidue should I have for a company that weekly derides the country I come from, slates the new HAL regime and actively promotes a racist attitude towards the game? SBS haven't helped Aus football for over three years now. I think Jaza makes an excellent point. No one denies the contribution Les and SBS have made to the game but how long can they hide behind this veil and keep taking pot shots at: - the HAL - the style of play - the coaches - the british system of play which is just not true and inherently racist It is time they start broadcasting with impartiality, equality and decency - the whole reason SBS was set up in the first place. |
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Post by bobandbill on Mar 28, 2007 17:03:58 GMT 10
The Mariners played quite some nice football in season 1 - but two of our best players in Gumprecht and Pondeljak missed a fair bit in season 2, affecting the 'decrease' in 'nice and attractive' football of season 2.
Season 3 however, with Jedinak and Owens signed further boosting our midfield, and the sacking of Spencer who kept kicking the ball out, or back to Vukovic, will defienately have our playmaking and passing game vastly improved in season 3, even more so if we stop getting so many injuries.
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Post by LeedsMariner#4 on Mar 28, 2007 18:30:49 GMT 10
we are one of the best teams when quickly breaking out from the back.
that excites the fans, watching the team break out from a defensive corner
our passing play suffered this season due mainly to the injuries sustained to so many players
surely at the top level, winning comes before attractive football
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Post by Jesus on Mar 28, 2007 18:45:00 GMT 10
Season one was better than season 2. Seeing tommy P, sully, gumps and heff in particular flying past defenders in overlaping runs and being very dangerous.
Season 2, all these players had significant injuries in season 2, and heff was not there. This hindered alot.
I Thought we got a bit lost in the final 3rd this season, with Kwassie the only one able to make the runs which had been so much a part of our game in season 1.
I dont see it being a problem this season.
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Post by ryan on Mar 28, 2007 19:04:39 GMT 10
I think in season 1 we were probably the best passing side in the competition. Season 2 was obviously not as good but the team have always tried to play a fluid passing style. In some circumstances long ball football was played but this was not the norm so i can't agree with Les on this one.
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Post by brett on Mar 28, 2007 21:52:34 GMT 10
surely at the top level, winning comes before attractive football My answer - it depends what you're after. If you are talking about a derby win at Newcastle, it is going to mean little if they can claim to have played better football when it comes to bragging rights. But look at Sydney FC. They finished 3rd this season compared to 2nd before but they lost out big time on the crowds. The Dwight factor and that aura of bling was gone, and the football was a little on the nose. Winning wasn't the only thing. And while Italy will probably be happy to be in the record books, history will portray them as the defensive winners of a drab, defensive World Cup. They won't go down as one of the great sides, whereas some Brazilian and Dutch sides who didn't win it would. The A-League is obviously a fishbowl not related to a lot of this. I'd say that with no relegation at stake, crowds to draw in and a future crop of Socceroos to raise that the style of football is at least as important as winning. |
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Post by marinerbhoy on Mar 29, 2007 0:32:40 GMT 10
i agree with jaza on the point that the mariners did the best they could with the cards they were dealt. we just didn't have the talent on the park. no doubt with a good run of injuries and some recruitment(its all looking good!) lawries boys will play to murray's standards. hopefully we wont ever, ever see that one striker system. mrdja or sasho just aint a viduka!
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Post by Rubbernose on Mar 29, 2007 2:11:06 GMT 10
Les is a bloody jerk, bordering on senile imho, and I seriously wonder how often the likes of him, Fozzie, and the rest of the SBS clan actually watch the A-League at all, based on some of the clueless comments they often make.
They play to a certain audience, and the Branko ass licking has reached sickening, cringeworthy proportions. I mean gawd, I know they're mates but they could at least try and be slightly balanced every so often.
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marinermick
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Post by marinermick on Mar 29, 2007 8:35:04 GMT 10
If anyone saw half time this morning between England and Andorra Fossie just went to town on England, their style of play and how the whole English system is wrong.
I believe it was almost bordering on racism because most of it was just so generalised and prejudice.
I wonder how people would have reacted if the same attack was on the French, Germans, Turks or Japanese for example.
I honestly believe that the Brits in the media subjected to more racism in Australia than many of the races. The amount of Brit bashing on television and in the paper would not be tolerated if it was another race.
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Post by jazasydneyfc on Mar 29, 2007 10:00:59 GMT 10
If anyone saw half time this morning between England and Andorra Fossie just went to town on England, their style of play and how the whole English system is wrong. I believe it was almost bordering on racism because most of it was just so generalised and prejudice. I wonder how people would have reacted if the same attack was on the French, Germans, Turks or Japanese for example. I honestly believe that the Brits in the media subjected to more racism in Australia than many of the races. The amount of Brit bashing on television and in the paper would not be tolerated if it was another race. Everything above is true. |
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Post by ryan on Mar 29, 2007 11:25:22 GMT 10
Agreed. But England were reasonably bad
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Post by Jesus on Mar 29, 2007 11:38:35 GMT 10
Except the Brits are tha majority. Minorities can say what they like about you arragant pommy bastards  I dont think An attack on a British system is racist. Possibly outdated. Due to the influence of foreign coaches on the EPL etc. I am of the opinion that in the past the british teams have played the system they speak of, but should probably be refered to as the old english style. Since these days are somewhat different. Like the current australian style is different. Fozzie does sound like a broken record in my opinion. But I cant say I find his remarks racist. Nor can I say I have read any Brit bashing in the paper, with the exception of McClaren, who is in a job where scrutiny is assumed. And not because he is a Brit |
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marinermick
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Post by marinermick on Mar 29, 2007 11:49:01 GMT 10
The Brit bashing in the media I am referring to is in a non-football context.
The media thinks it is OK to constantly use the word pommy and label all brits as whingers. This form of racism goes under the radar because Australian society finds it all acceptable that the brits are generalised as such.
It got to ridiculous proportions during the ashes series. I was stunned at some of the headlines and articles in the paper and knew that if it was any other ethnic race it would not have been tolerated.
This racism is even worse because of the societal acceptance of it. I am sure in the 60s many people thought what was happening to the blacks in America was OK and part of society. Ditto for white South Africa. Still doesn't make it right.
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Post by Jesus on Mar 29, 2007 12:12:51 GMT 10
Fair enough
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Post by curious on Mar 29, 2007 12:22:05 GMT 10
Racism - "A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race - the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races"
How is citicism of a nations footballing style of play & idiosyncrasies "almost bordering on racism" Mick?
Whilst Fozzie's comments regarding English football do get very tiresome & show his 'over the top' disdain for the inherent style apparent in the English football team, any connotation of racism is way over the top, with not a hint of the actual meaning of the word or the difficulties it causes those forced to cope with it every day.
I'd be interested in seeing a crumb of evidence of this. Perhaps next time you in the company of someone from a non Anglo-Australian background, you can ask their opinion?
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please."--Mark Twain
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