A-League Round One v Sydney

[marinermick]

djgrounsell said:

jazasydneyfc said:

Can't say there is. He's looking forward to scoring against you though.

and Sasho is looking forward to waving at you when he scores in front of the Cove

and peter turnbull will give you all a wave from bay 3 as sasho scores

[marinermick]

serious14 said:

I'd also love to pick his brain...... more specifically as to why every substitution he's ever made involves taking the best player on the field off (invariably Pondeljak or Gumps) and completely destroying whatever midfield cohesion there was. Maybe it's a Scottish thing, I don't know - I'd still like to know why he does it though.

Prime example was last night - Simon was playing really well, making inroads from midfield into scoring positions, while my mate Kwasnik was doing...... well, not much, yet Simon is the one who gets subbed. I've never understood Lawrie's subbing methods (and why they come really late most of the time).

simon was dead on his feet - he has had very little game time

for the 10 minutes or so before he got subbed he stopped running

often happens with both gumpy and tommy as you always notice their impact less in the second half

[Pete]

marinermick said:

petethebusdriver said:

Mick, Gumps was on fire vs. Sydney at Canberra

one game don't maketh a preseason

That's true Mick, but Gumps had the wood on their midfield and some of their defence in that game, and I don't think that Tommy is as effective in the last third of the whole match when he starts, as compared to Gumps.
If you were to replace Gumps with someone who Lawrie has pencilled in to stay on the pitch for the full 90, I'd be inclined to run with Porter than Tommy. Tommy is very effective as an impact player and with a tiring defence during the last portion of the second half, he can carve them up.

[marinermick]

petethebusdriver said:

marinermick said:

one game don't maketh a preseason

That's true Mick, but Gumps had the wood on their midfield and some of their defence in that game, and I don't think that Tommy is as effective in the last third of the whole match when he starts, as compared to Gumps.
If you were to replace Gumps with someone who Lawrie has pencilled in to stay on the pitch for the full 90, I'd be inclined to run with Porter than Tommy. Tommy is very effective as an impact player and with a tiring defence during the last portion of the second half, he can carve them up.

we will have to disagree on this one

tommy's assist count and his goal scoring record is evidence that he is effective in the last third

A-League regular seasons stats:
Tommy - 2419 minutes - 5 goals - 6 assists
Gumpy - 2684 minutes - 2 goals - 4 assists

[serious14]

marinermick said:

for the 10 minutes or so before he got subbed he stopped running

Oh I dunno....... the whole team had stopped running by that point.

[Ursus]

I really think we must have Gumps and Tommy on the field together. Alone either of them can be closed down. They are the creative sparks which we need at the moment.

I still think we miss Petrie's, (when he played just behind the other striker), subtle, sneaky little lay offs into space that allowed both of them to carve up defences in the first season.

Without that our midfield has not looked as good as in V1.

It is no good having just one player who can play short "one, twos". It becomes a "one, d'oh".

Also, do not right Kwassy off down the right, in that position[/b], he provides pace in a team that has quite a few slower runners. If he is allowed room he can create havoc, if not, (like semi against Perth),he can get closed down and I hope Owens gets match fit real quick.

[marinermick]

ursus said:

I really think we must have Gumps and Tommy on the field together. Alone either of them can be closed down. They are the creative sparks which we need at the moment.

they have not played much together because of injuries but the mariners do have an impressive record when both are playing

[Pete]

Looking at Gumps' and Tommy's stats Mick, they are both accredited with 34 games, but Gumps has started more than Tommy (32vs. 27). This gives the impression that Lawrie's preference is to start Gumps.
Given that the first third of any match is a settling in period, and Gumps is, I guess staying within the midfield more at that point bolstering defence, Tommy's record will appear more impressive than Gumps because he has the statistical luxury of 5 more games starting from the bench. When he then does go on, the game has been settled and perhaps more open to attacking moves, if the Mariners are on the offensive.
(Wonder if the stats would bolster Andre's record if he had the opportunity to start from the bench 5 less times than Tommy - and Tommy been given the task of holding down the midfield in the opening phase of a game.)
Don't know how the Goals scored and Assists gives the impression that Tommy is effective in the last third of the game, the stats don't show the minute mark he did that work does it or how that supports the argument that Tommy will be as effective as a starting player? That said tho, there are statistics and there are statistics, right?
Tommy is definately the more attacking of the two, and like Ursus, I would hope that Owens is match fit soon to provide another option to Gumps, Tommy and Porter.

[marinermick]

petethebusdriver said:

Looking at Gumps' and Tommy's stats Mick, they are both accredited with 34 games, but Gumps has started more than Tommy (32vs. 27). This gives the impression that Lawrie's preference is to start Gumps.
Given that the first third of any match is a settling in period, and Gumps is, I guess staying within the midfield more at that point bolstering defence, Tommy's record will appear more impressive than Gumps because he has the statistical luxury of 5 more games starting from the bench. When he then does go on, the game has been settled and perhaps more open to attacking moves, if the Mariners are on the offensive. That said tho, there are statistics and there are statistics, right? Tommy is definately the more attacking of the two, and like Ursus, I would hope that Owens is match fit soon to provide another option to Gumps, Tommy and Porter.

granted, but thinking back the majority of tommy's goals and assists have come from games he has started

may be wrong but it is something i will check

and again, i will disagree that gumps does more work in defence than tommy in that settling period

[serious14]

I mentioned this to a few people yesterday and they tended to agree......

My worry is that we're becoming the Arsenal of the A-League. Awesome midfield, really good to watch when we're on fire, killer short passing game, blah blah etc. - but when we need to, we just _cannot_ score. I think back to a Champs League game Arsenal played against CSKA Moscow last season, something ridiculous like 28 shots on target, and it ended up 0-0. This wouldn't be worrying me _too_ much (there's always a good striker somewhere waiting to be found) if our defence didn't look a tad shaky at the moment.

As I keep saying to myself, I just hope this is pre-season cobweb dusting off. If all this gear is still the case by about Round 5 (a la last season), then we can really start to worry.

P.S. I'm sure Mick will agree with me when I say that Tommy P rules, and we are a better team for having him on the field. His running and passing in V1 (and parts of V2) were priceless. And if he fires of 4 or 5 goals a season, then that's even better. Or even if it's only 3 - if they are anywhere near the quality of the brace against Perth, then that's just fine and dandy by me.

[Pete]

ursus said:

I really think we must have Gumps and Tommy on the field together. Alone either of them can be closed down. They are the creative sparks which we need at the moment.

I still think we miss Petrie's, (when he played just behind the other striker), subtle, sneaky little lay offs into space that allowed both of them to carve up defences in the first season.

Without that our midfield has not looked as good as in V1.

It is no good having just one player who can play short "one, twos". It becomes a "one, d'oh".

Also, do not right Kwassy off down the right, in that position[/b], he provides pace in a team that has quite a few slower runners. If he is allowed room he can create havoc, if not, (like semi against Perth),he can get closed down and I hope Owens gets match fit real quick.

Ursus, I don't know who you want to leave on the bench if you played Tommy and Gumps together! Miles has been very solid just in front of the centre defence and his heading ability is a must too. You mention not to leave out Kwassi, so he's on the RM position. I think that Browny and Heff complement each other well. Browny's experience from last year at Left Fullback has improved his defense, and when Heff goes forward, Browny is a great cover man at LFB - not just a midfielder stop-gapping the role (which is what Hutch tends to do). So would you run 5 midfielders ( Browny, Tommy, Gumps and Kwassi with Miles in the centre just behind) and only 3 defensive players (assuming you'd have two forwards?)?
I honestly don't think that the team is missing Petrie with the return of Heff (no disrespect to Petrie on that comment) and the cohesion of Brown and Heff on the left side.

[dibo (pron. "DIB-OH")]

marinermick said:

petethebusdriver said:

That's true Mick, but Gumps had the wood on their midfield and some of their defence in that game, and I don't think that Tommy is as effective in the last third of the whole match when he starts, as compared to Gumps.
If you were to replace Gumps with someone who Lawrie has pencilled in to stay on the pitch for the full 90, I'd be inclined to run with Porter than Tommy. Tommy is very effective as an impact player and with a tiring defence during the last portion of the second half, he can carve them up.

we will have to disagree on this one

tommy's assist count and his goal scoring record is evidence that he is effective in the last third

A-League regular seasons stats:
Tommy - 2419 minutes - 5 goals - 6 assists
Gumpy - 2684 minutes - 2 goals - 4 assists

to clear up something that appears to have been a source of confusion - mick, by final third do you mean attacking third or last 30 minutes?

[marinermick]

dibo said:

marinermick said:

we will have to disagree on this one

tommy's assist count and his goal scoring record is evidence that he is effective in the last third

A-League regular seasons stats:
Tommy - 2419 minutes - 5 goals - 6 assists
Gumpy - 2684 minutes - 2 goals - 4 assists

to clear up something that appears to have been a source of confusion - mick, by final third do you mean attacking third or last 30 minutes?

ah, well picked up dibo

i was talking about the final third of the field

in that case i still disagree - gumpy runs out of legs big time

[Pete]

Um, I meant the final 30 minutes of the match.... I was debating Gumps' endurance over Tommy's.
Statistically, they are only 6 or 7 minutes per game apart in 'time on the field', but Tommy has started the game 5 less times.All too confusing, I'm having a Bex and a good lie down!

[bobandbill]

Personally, I would go with both Gumps and Tommy. Both can easily rip apart a defence (ahh, memories from Season 1), and together, they are a force to be reckoned with.
Besides, after seeing Gumps run back and forth, chasing nearly every ball, is enough for me to say that he puts more than enough effort in (maybe too much effort, hence why he tiresa bit quicker). He can cross too, as he showed a few times yesterday.

Wasn't very impressed with Wilko and Kwasnik yesterday (bar that great header). Heff looked very dangerous, and am confident he will be at his best in a few weeks at this rate. Hope our defence improves in 2 weeks, and if Vuko plays, he saves a few more...

[Ursus]

petethebusdriver said:

ursus said:

I really think we must have Gumps and Tommy on the field together. Alone either of them can be closed down. They are the creative sparks which we need at the moment.

I still think we miss Petrie's, (when he played just behind the other striker), subtle, sneaky little lay offs into space that allowed both of them to carve up defences in the first season.

Without that our midfield has not looked as good as in V1.

It is no good having just one player who can play short "one, twos". It becomes a "one, d'oh".

Also, do not right Kwassy off down the right, in that position[/b], he provides pace in a team that has quite a few slower runners. If he is allowed room he can create havoc, if not, (like semi against Perth),he can get closed down and I hope Owens gets match fit real quick.

Ursus, I don't know who you want to leave on the bench if you played Tommy and Gumps together! Miles has been very solid just in front of the centre defence and his heading ability is a must too. You mention not to leave out Kwassi, so he's on the RM position. I think that Browny and Heff complement each other well. Browny's experience from last year at Left Fullback has improved his defense, and when Heff goes forward, Browny is a great cover man at LFB - not just a midfielder stop-gapping the role (which is what Hutch tends to do). So would you run 5 midfielders ( Browny, Tommy, Gumps and Kwassi with Miles in the centre just behind) and only 3 defensive players (assuming you'd have two forwards?)?
I honestly don't think that the team is missing Petrie with the return of Heff (no disrespect to Petrie on that comment) and the cohesion of Brown and Heff on the left side.

I think I stated on another thread that it would be Browny who started from the bench. I agree with Mick about the way he is playing so far this year and I am a fan. But someone has to make space.
I would initially see him coming on at the first change, either replacing Heff or Tommy or playing LM if Gumps goes off and Tommygoes to AM.
I think Tommy, Gumps, Kwassy and Mile are our best option for an attacking midfield.

[brett]

Our best XI is still probably

Danny V
- - Boogs Wilko Viddie
Ossie - - Jedi - - - - Heff
- - - Gumps - Tommy
- - - Mrdja - Sasho

But, now that I'm over the initial excitement of Mrdja + Sasho, and actually watching the team work, I reckon our best 442 is probably

Danny
Ossie Wilko Viddie Heff
Kwassy Gumps Jedi Brown
- Tommy - Mrdja/Sasho

I don't know which of Mrdja or Sasho you sit down, but fact is, they are similar players and either would will likely work better with a Tommy, Kwassy or Simon doing most of the running off/around them.

I expect an injury or suspension to unlock this option for us sooner or later in the A-League and everything will fall into place. Until then, I'd find it hard to actually make that decision! You wouldn't be a manager for quids.

[shipwreck]

What about Owens?
Watching his shots from outside the box at half time as he was warming up, he rarely missed the to right corner...

[brett]

shipwreck said:

What about Owens?
Watching his shots from outside the box at half time as he was warming up, he rarely missed the to right corner...

Grego's time will come, but it'd be hard to leave out one of the above players for him at this stage given we've barely seen him in pre-season.

If he comes off the bench and puts one in the top corner it will be the definition of 'impact'!

[bikinigirl]

brett,
. i do like the look of your first 11 with a back 3 - i was keen on the back 3 idea last year, in the sense of playing your strongest team without playing people out of position

. speed at the back could be an issue but i'd suggest a back 3 may play a little deeper and the heff will also be there for 200mph cover

. it may also force the back 3 to get their act togther if we find ourselves back in 18 yard box